I would like to say, nope never. But then I think of Peter. So I will say I hope I never am put into the position of renouncing and if I am, may God take my life before I can do it.

Eww, kind of a sad way to go.... but eh, yer choice...lets hope it doesn't get down to that...

Eww, kind of a sad way to go....

Your opinion. You know what they say about those.

Your opinion. You know what they say about those.

You can hang'em on a christmas tree?


--Lucas

Interestingly I am most attracted to that religion which actually calls on you to renounce your faith. The 'aim' of Buddhism is to awaken to the reality of things by slowly, patiently cutting through the layers of delusion, greed and hatred that stop us from seeing things as they are. In the Buddha's own teaching 'Buddhism' is simply a kind of boat that allows us to cross over to the other side of the river. Once there, you really don't need that boat anymore...

Now, with a non-dualistic view of things faith and truth should be one and the same; if they are not, then of course one should renounce one's faith - and as quickly as possible! I found it refreshing to hear the Dalai Lama, when asked what he would do if any aspect of his faith were proven to be scientifically in error, say that he would, of course change his faith. As they say in Zen "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

All religions ask us in various ways to see beyond our limited egos. Perhaps the last step for many of us - the last space in which our individual ego holds out the longest - is our religious conviction. For many of us it might be the most painful of all 'little deaths' that we are called on to make...

In Zen the tantalising image is held out of a fully awakened master, who is now no longer interested in meditation or enlightenment or 'religion', but simply has a clear eyed view of how things actually are.

As Daisetz Suzuki once expressed it, "Before Zen, men are men and mountains are mountains; during Zen study things become confused; after enlightenment men are men and mountains are mountains, only one's feet are a little off the ground."

Reply By: Chakgogka

*Whew* Long response... but i can agree with that...

--Lucas

You can hang'em on a christmas tree?

Reply By: Tova7

What!? Am I wrong? I always thought that's where ya stuck 'em....



--Lucas

Well that is as good a place as any!

I'd like to think that I'd still believe even in the face of unrelenting evidence. That's what blind faith is all about, after all. It's no fun if you can see where you're going...

I'd like to think that I'd still believe even in the face of unrelenting evidence. That's what blind faith is all about, after all. It's no fun if you can see where you're going...

Tree? What Tre- *Thud*

There ya go...

Well that is as good a place as any!

Mentioned that to a friend of mine and he proceeded to suggest putting it in a "personal 'haver-sack'" (Dungeons and Dragons terminology= a extra deminsional space) :/



--Lucas

Would you ever renounce your faith?

I think we will eventually be able to renounce our faith in order for it to be superseded by knowledge.

Religious faith is presently only “faith” from the point of view of the intellect. From the point of view of one’s heart, (i.e. at the deeper level of one’s consciousness), religious conviction can be a lot more than faith. Significantly, when Jesus taught the people of his day, he addressed them as God’s “children”. He also taught that the Truth can be found through nothing more than a “child-like faith”. Jesus knew that these people weren’t ready to accept the truths he conveyed from a purely intellectual point of view. They had to rely on faith, because they were still only children, spiritually speaking. The so-called ‘mature, adult intellect’, which the world perceives as wise, could not understand Christ’s teachings, and people who were attuned with the intellect alone, i.e. divorced from spiritual wisdom, often mocked Christ's teachings. (This is still the case today, of course.)

But naturally, children grow up. And significantly, Jesus also taught that we shall “know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

Speaking in terms of humanity’s spiritual growth as a whole, I believe that there will come a time when Christians will be able to shed their ‘faith-consciousness’, in order to make way for ‘intuition-consciousness’, which I think is the stage many Christians are presently at. As humanity evolves, (i.e. grows up), intuition will in turn eventually be superseded by knowledge, and we shall know that the Christian Good News is actually true.

This does not necessarily imply that God’s existence - and our purpose on earth - will one day be proved by materialistic science. Rather, it implies that our spiritual awareness will rise and blossom to such a degree that the crude methods of materialistic science alone will be transcended, (not necessarily refuted – just transcended), and the “seeds of God”, which reside within us (1 John 3.9), will have grown and blossomed to such a level in humanity’s consciousness that our mortal intellect will know the Truth of God. Then, only the spiritually immature – or the fool – will claim that there is no God.

Naturally, as children grow up, they become more like the “image and likeness” of their parents. Regarding humanity, this obviously holds deep implications. (“Is it not written, ‘Ye are Gods’?”, said Jesus, referring to Psalm 82.6.)

I think St. Paul hit the nail on the head in 1 Corinthians 13.12, when he wrote: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Reply By: AndyBaker

-Good reply