A few questions for the christian folk...

Published on October 21, 2005 By ----- In Religion

Ok, so i am told that the bible says not to support "witchcraft", i.e. prophets, magic, etc...

But, my question is, what about Jesus, the disciples, didn't *they* forsee things happening in the future. ("prophecising") Example: the Book of revelations, with john (?) seeing the "end times".....? Is that not "black arts? Or is it, immune, because the person is affiliated with "god"...

What about Nostradamus, or Edgar Cayce?

Just some thing that crossed my mind...."

Comments (Page 2)

Locamama

on Oct 21, 2005

God created many evil things. He made Hitler and Stalin and all of the murderers. He didn't make them evil He gave them and all of us free will to choose our path.

-----

on Oct 22, 2005

Reply By: LocamamaPosted: Friday, October 21, 2005God created many evil things. He made Hitler and Stalin and all of the murderers. He didn't make them evil He gave them and all of us free will to choose our path.

But, If god is all powerful, then why would he let them do what they did, let alone come to power....?

Spc Nobody Special

on Oct 22, 2005

But, If god is all powerful, then why would he let them do what they did, let alone come to power....?

Now you're entering into the concept of free will. Very complex subject.

Here's a basic idea. God made everyone, but he gave everyone the ability to choose whether or not to obey him.

(do good or evil. By definition (if Christian) obey God = good, disobey = evil)If God tells you to kill someone, then it's not sin, right? Or if he tells you that, oh say wearing polka dots is wrong, then it is sin.)

In order to be an individual, not just an automaton (robot without free will) you have to be able to make that choice. However, in order for people to have that ability, some must choose it, right? If he made everyone, so that everyone choose good automatically, then it's no choice at all.

Furthermore, if you allow it as a choice, then it does no good to tramp it out immediately, as soon as evil pops up. The old testament is full of stories where the Israelites start off well, then are allowed to stray into evil, set on the right path, stray, right path, stray......and so on.

Other factors include that it serves the Lord. How? I don't know. The Bible does say that all things work to serve the Lord.

Did something that need to happen occur that couldn't without Hitler? Who knows. Did it prevent worse evil from happening? Can't say.

If we can't choose evil, then we can't choose to serve God either. We'd be tools. And as far as we know, free will applies to Satan too, because he chose to rebel against God. In fact the word satan doesn't always mean "THE DEVIL."
It's actually from a Hebraic word that means one who opposes.

However, when you get down to it, as far as the Bible goes, God does what He wants, and it's not up to us to question. That was the same answer (boiled down about two chapters) that He gave to Job when Job was bitching about the crap he was going through.

As to your "magic" question, okay if given by the authority of God, otherwise a no-no. Does it sometimes work outside of this? Sure. Look at Saul and the Witch of Endor (not the moon where the Ewoks were from, I swear.) They called up the ghost of the prophet Samuel, and Sammie told him off for it.

Or how about the demon that Saul (the apostle, not the king) got thrown in jail for casting out? He pissed off the local merchants because they couldn't hear the prophecies any more.

Unless you're into I'm okay, you're okay, and all paths are valid religion, something which definitely opposes Christian doctrine, if you're friend is doing magic or making prophecy legitimately, and it's not from God, than to a Christian, it must be Satanic in origin.

(and actually, even that is indirectly from God, it is the powers that God allows Satan, much like he allows us the power of choice)

Fun stuff, huh? And no, I don't walk around thinking, wow, what wiccan or druid can I persecute today. One of the basic tenants of Christianity is hate the sin, love the sinner.

No, we're not supposed to judge. HOWEVER, if it is clearly stated by God (from what's in the bible) then we, as Christians are to recognize it as such, and neither approve of nor participate in it, including preforming "magic" in or out of the name of God without his say so.

This has been entirely, insanely too long, but I hope it helps clarify the position a little.

Locamama

on Oct 22, 2005

But, If god is all powerful, then why would he let them do what they did, let alone come to power....?

It's the whole free will thing. He could have made us zombies who did only what he wanted to but He didn't, He let us have free will to chose our actions. Unfortunately, many people make the wrong choices.

I guess that comes down to the whole if God is good why do bad things happen argument. I don't think there's any real explaining or understanding of it. I believe that God wants the best for us but He is not going to impose His will on us. We have to come and follow his way by choice.

In the Old Testament when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, that was an evil thing but God said "they meant it for evil but I meant it for good". So even though something bad happened to him in the end it ended up putting him in the position of power where he could save his family from starvation. Now I'm hearing Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat music in my head. Time to go.

HC1240

on Oct 22, 2005

It is the source of the magic that is in question

Therein lies the answer.

Is it right for some one to say, that one who follows a druidic 'faith' (lack of a better term), like one of my friends online, is evil. He is adamantley peaceful. He follows the better side of druidic "religion".... would *that* be (cause he is a "high priest") evil, would he be evil? As far as i know he doesn't practice black magic...

Of course he's evil, but only because we're ALL evil.

"There is no one righteous; not even one." (Rom. 3:10)

In and of ourselves, none of us is good. That's why it's called GRACE. It's a demonstration of God's unmerited favor when one is "saved".

As far as your question goes, it's not the person I judge, it's actions. I don't condemn anyone or even pretend to know another person's heart. What I AM responsible to do is stand for the Truth and expose darkness, but light, by it's very nature, does that.
As a Christian, the Bible tells me how to distinguish between the spirits.

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

There are a few different passages that talk about how you can know... but basically it boils down to two things. 1 - Does the spirit acknowledge Christ as Lord? Not just knowing intellectually (even the demons know and shudder), but confesses Him as Lord. 2 - If what they predict actually comes to pass. Benny Hinn (modern televangelist) once predicted that Jesus was going to come stand on stage with him. *laughs* It never happened. He's an imposter.

Also, how could you say that prophetising the future is evil, or good for that matter... How would you view someone who is predicting a major earthquake, evil, because of what he saw? Or good, cause he has made it known... (If the quake came to pass)

God created many evil things. He made Hitler and Stalin and all of the murderers. He didn't make them evil He gave them and all of us free will to choose our path.

Agree completely.

But, If god is all powerful, then why would he let them do what they did, let alone come to power....?

I have three children. I want them to love me and obey me, but I don't want them to do it because they HAVE to. I want them to do it because they WANT to. That's why. If we were robots, programmed to love and worship God... what's the point in that? Because God did give us free will, sin entered the picture. As a result of sin (and I personally think pride is at the root of all sin - pride is what caused Satan to seek a higher position, is it not? Pride is what causes me to do the things I want, rather than the things God wants for me), we live in a fallen world. That's just the way it is. One day, all that will change. For now... the condition will continue to deteriorate - because we've chosen to rebel against God. And we all do. I'm not talking about looters in Louisiana, or murderers, or rapists. I'm including myself in this equation as well, as a Christian.

These are not easy questions, Lucas, and they don't have easy answers. But the answers are there. Keep seeking the truth.

HC1240

on Oct 22, 2005

Look at Saul and the Witch of Endor (not the moon where the Ewoks were from, I swear.) They called up the ghost of the prophet Samuel, and Sammie told him off for it.

*chuckling* Love the way you put this.

This has been entirely, insanely too long, but I hope it helps clarify the position a little.

Spoken with clarity and brevity. I thought it was great!

-----

on Oct 22, 2005

Hmmm, ok.... well, the truth is out there....i guess.... I understand now what you guys mean...

Dr Guy

on Oct 23, 2005

God created many evil things. He made Hitler and Stalin and all of the murderers. He didn't make them evil He gave them and all of us free will to choose our path.

The key there being Free Will. All to often those that want to poo poo religion use the fact that evil exists as their crutch. It does, because God allows us to be evil, as well as good.

-----

on Oct 28, 2005

The key there being Free Will. All to often those that want to poo poo religion use the fact that evil exists as their crutch. It does, because God allows us to be evil, as well as good.

Will?! What'd they do to my friend? (Free Willy!)

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